Tick-Talk Tuesday is about the letters and comments I have received from you, the reader, concerning your clock, issues you might have had, challenges you face, a clock you would like me to profile, my advice on your particular clock concern or a general clock question. For those comments and questions that stump even me, I consult within my clock circles for the best possible answer
Clock for sale
MB wrote
“Hi Ron,
I came across this clock and your blog and have fell in love with it. I want to put a bid on it but have no idea what it is worth. Could you give me your opinion please?”
I am not sure whether they fell in love with the clock or my blog!
I replied,
Attached photo
Hi and thanks for writing.
The clock you wish to bid on appears to be American-made and from the 1990s. Let me point out some factors to consider.
If the clock is from the 1990s, the movement (the mechanical works) have reached the end of its service life. Typically movements from this era have a life span of about 25 years. If it is a non-working clock, it is worn out. If it is a working clock there is not much time left on the movement. Regardless, to service or replace the movement would be in the order of $450 to $500. If it has been recently serviced (disassembled, wear issues addressed, repairs made, reassembled, tested and oiled) or the movement has been replaced with a new one, that is a big plus.
From the photo I would question why the weights are at different levels. In a working clock the three weights descend together (with slight variations) through the clock’s 8-day cycle. See attached photo (right).
Many years ago it was not unusual to spend $2000 to $3000 for one of these clocks when new. Today they are worth almost nothing. The fact that this clock appears to be in a basement or garage does not bode well for its condition. The photo is not very clear but I can see wear around the base of the clock and it may even be missing the bottommost pedestal (which might be concealed by something in front of it) which also begs the question: what else is missing?
A similar clock in excellent condition with a recently serviced movement would be in the $500 price range.
A clock, such as this, that has never been serviced whether working or not would be in the $100 – $125 price range but be prepared to spend more money on it unless you can do the repairs yourself.
MB writes back,
“Thank you so much! They did indicate that the pendulum isn’t working so I guess I will stay away.
I appreciate your detailed answer and for saving me from what sounds like it could have been a waste.
I was attracted to the style of this clock but disappointed when I learned that it was a marriage of a Waterbury case with a Seth Thomas movement. Briefly, a marriage is when parts from two different makers come together.
Buying a clock from a flea market, antique mall, a shop or what have you is always a gamble. On this particular clock there is no trademark or name on the dial or a label in the back of the case that told me who the maker was. I made an assumption and it was an impulse buy.
Glass and bezel are from a later clock
While at the antique store I opened the back of the case to confirm that the clock had a movement and it was complete with pendulum bob and coiled gong and to me everything appeared correct until I brought it home. My first thought was an Ansonia movement when I looked at it under the dim light of the store.
Seth Thomas and other makers made similar cabinet style cases but this is the Wren by the Waterbury Clock Company. Being a marriage, the clock is worth much less to those particular about such matters. No matter, it looks attractive.
I can imagine a past owner’s conversation with the repair guy, I don’t care what you do, just make it work! And the repair guy responds by removing the very worn Waterbury movement and replacing it with a Seth Thomas. Easy peasy!
One of the current seller’s stickers on the case said it was a non-working clock but with minor adjustments, such as moving the pallets closer to the escape wheel and releasing the time-side mainspring, I had it running in no time. There is not much wrong with the movement and a good cleaning plus a bushing or two should put things right.
So, what did I buy?
As I said, I like the case and it has a decent movement but when a clock is a marriage one can expect some questionable repairs and interesting changes as one takes things apart.
I am not absolutely certain the dial pan came with the case or was added later but the glass and bezel are certainly from a mid-century mantel clock. It is so ugly it will be tossed into the spare parts drawer. I will keep the dial pan but a piecrust bezel with flat glass is more appropriate for the period.
Piecrust dial on a 6-column mantel clock
Seth Thomas time and strike 8-day movement
I removed the dial and discovered a number of extra screw holes here and there, varying lengths of screws, some screw holes filled with pieces of wood, even a couple of Robertson screws (not invented until after the First War) and so on. Obviously the replacement movement required new holes and why not drill a few extra holes for good measure!
The hole on the dial just above the 12 is larger than it should be. It was either enlarged to accommodate the regulating arbour or it’s a new hole altogether.
On a positive note both the case and the movement are from a similar period.
Disassembling the movement
But this post is about servicing the movement.
I am impressed with the engineering of this Seth Thomas movement. It is robust and well-designed though it has an interesting, overly complicated, speed regulating feature.
From my research I found that the hip style movement is the type 44 which was used for a 12 year period beginning in 1890. In 1903 it was presumably replaced with the type 89 movement, simpler to manufacture, fewer parts and more reliable, and appeared in many thousands of ST mantel clocks afterwards. It has a sickle shaped brass piece between the plates so that the clock can be turned backwards repeatedly at the hour to sync the strike with the hands. It is technically called a set-back counter weight.
Brass piece indicated by arrow
Regulating arbour with worm gear on one end
There were variations of this movement, front winding movements as opposed to rear winding, with and without the worm gear speed regulator and some with stop works. This movement does not have Geneva stops.
It took me more time than usual to pry open the plates because I was slowed down by the intricacy of regulating mechanism. Part of the mechanism consists of a long arbour that passes from the front plate to the back plate. At one end is a worm gear and on the other is the regulating end. It is secured to the outside of the front plate by means of a spring with a pin through the arbour. To release the arbour, the pin must be pulled and the spring releases.
Well, actually the spring flew across the room. No problem, I’m used to crawling on the floor looking for clock parts.
I have worked on a lot of American time and strike movements but this type of regulating mechanism is a first for me. In fact, the set-back counter weight is also a first for me.
Analysis of the movement
The movement has had 12 bushings installed, 5 on the front plate and 7 on the back. The work is well done but I don’t like the arrows scratched into the plate indicating where each bushing would be installed. I use a Sharpie pen and after I have completed the bushing work I wipe the marks off with alcohol. There is no need to mar the plates.
Arrow indicating scratch mark below bushing
After looking over the movement carefully I can see there is enough wear in some bushings that they must be replaced, both second wheels, front plate, the governor, both front and back and the escape wheel bridge bushing which for some reason has punch marks around it, the only unsightly repair.
Escape wheel and bridge
The mainsprings look to be in good shape and still bears the original ST trademarks. No worn gear teeth and the pivots, plus the lantern pinions are all in great shape.
All in all, not bad for a movement that was last serviced quite a number of years ago.
Strike side of ST movement
The pivots were polished and next is the bushing work. Two were interesting to say the least.
The count count wheel and the strike pin wheel are side by side. A bushing was required for the pin wheel but I could not access it from inside the plate. This is one of those few times when drilling from the outside is the only way however, I was able to push the bushing home from the inside plate. It is one of those situation where you have to stand back, analysis the problem and consider a strategy. It worked.
The second was the escape wheel bridge. To stabilize the bridge a 5-step block jig comes in handy. Otherwise, it is very difficult to keep the bridge steady and drill a straight hole.
% level job block used for an escape wheel bridge
The drilling went fine until the last 3.47 mm cutter. When I began to drill out the hole the old bushing came out. I knew right away that the new bushing would not have a tight fit. Evidently a past repairer had the same problem.
staking set
The block from a staking set is a useful tool. With it I was able to lay the plate down on it and punch the bushing from the inside to stabilize it.
Once together everything fell into place or so I thought. Unfortunately, I will have to take it apart again because I forgot the regulating worm gear which can only be installed with the plates separated. The movement will run perfectly fine without it, but it is part of the clock.
Let me begin by saying that I am not a big fan of clock movements with steel plates. Many that I have come across have brass bushing inserts that I believe to be a limitation rather than a benefit.
Waterbury short drop wall clock
The movement in this plain drop octagon case is a Waterbury time-only. When I bought the clock in January of 2016 it came without the glass and bezel which I ordered from a supplier. I was informed by the previous owner that it had been serviced so, other than the new glass and bezel plus inpainting some of the numerals I have done nothing else to it, but now it is time to service the movement.
Inpainted numerals
A diminutive size, this clock was made around 1930 just a few short years before the Waterbury Clock Company was placed in receivership.
It is a solid oak case measuring 19 inches long by 12 inches wide, with an 8 inch paper dial marked Waterbury, a black and gold pendulum aperture, and 8-day time-only movement. The bottom of the dial says, ” Made in the USA by Waterbury Clock Company”, Connecticut. These clocks are often refereed to as schoolhouse clocks though I can’t imagine the dial of a clock this small visible from the other end of a classroom.
Issues with steel plated movements
As mentioned, the movement has steel plates. Steel plates are perfectly fine and I understand why manufacturers use them, to save brass (and money), but I have two issues with them.
One, no matter how hard I try, I cannot get them to shine because the steel tends to attract tarnish which is almost impossible to remove. And of course, as they are made of steel they are prone to rusting. The solution is to plate the steel in brass or nickel as some makers did.
Arthur Pequegnat movements, with steel plates, for example, are nickel-plated. Unless the nickel plating is compromised they shine up spectacularly.
Pequegnat nickel-plated steel plates
A second issue with steel plates is the brass bushing inserts. In my view, there is simply not enough brass to work with. In most cases I use a smaller bushing than I would otherwise employ so as to avoid cutting into the steel plate. I use the Bergeon bushing system. KWM bushings may have a smaller outside diameter, I’m not sure?
Large bushings on a movement that has steel plates means there is a risk in cutting into the steel. The cutters that came with my Bergeon bushing machine are about $35CDN apiece and it would only take a cut or two into steel to render them dull and useless.
Waterbury Arion instructions
Assessing the movement
The movement is in generally good condition. The lantern pinions and gear teeth are in excellent condition. There is minimal wear on the pallets, escape wheel teeth and all parts in general.
The mainspring is definitely a replacement. The loop end looks to have been annealed. It does not look professional but the mainspring is in very good shape and is reusable. I suspect, given the length of the mainspring, that it is oversized for the movement.
The movement is certainly in need of bushing work. New bushings will extend the life of the movement.
Five bushings were installed. Two on the verge, front and back, the third wheel back plate and second and fourth wheels front plate.
Three bushings on the front plate
The pivot on the third wheel is 2.30mm in diameter. Though it would normally require a 4.50mm outside diameter bushing, a 4.50mm bushing makes a very large hole, so large in fact that it would have meant cutting into the steel plate.
I chose a 3.5 mm bushing with a 1.90mm inside diameter. Broaching out to 2.30mm, effectively removes .4 millimeters of brass with a remaining thickness of 1.2mm which should be enough. 3.00mm OD bushings were used for the 4 other pivot holes. Brass-plated movements present present fewer limitations on bushing diameter.
New third wheel bushing
The mainspring was cleaned and oiled. The movement was reassembled and put on the test stand.
Once on the test stand I noticed a wobble in the suspension leader which was rectified by tightening the suspension spring post.
If you are novice and just starting out in clock repair, time-only movements are excellent to begin with as there is only one train to work on but take extra care with movements that have steel plates.
Time-only Waterbury movement on the test stand
My suspicion about the mainspring was confirmed. 15 days later, it was still running.
After 5 years this movement should not have been as worn as it was and the issue is an oversized mainspring which puts an unnecessary load on the gears through the train. I am not about to replace the mainspring, it is just not worth it for a $40 clock, but my advice to anyone interested in clock repair is to source a mainspring that is correctly sized for the movement you are working on.
The cleaning and the installation of new bushings should nonetheless ensure years of reliable running.
7 reasons why a hobby such as clockmaking gives respite during a pandemic.
Builds self-esteem. Developing and maintaining a hobby is important because the small successes from day to day are enough to sustain oneself amid other pressures in life and it is the one solid thing to feel good about. It gives renewed energy to tackle other challenges in life.
Dial face, Scottish tall case clock C.1848
Avoid boredom. There is zero scientific evidence of this but boredom is responsible for a lot of society’s ills and destructive behaviours. Do you come home after a challenging workday to watch hours of TV when you could be doing something constructive and rewarding? If so, it is time to re-evaluate your life.
Junghans Sydney shelf clock C.1911
Enrich your perspective. There is an old adage: “The more you know, the more you grow”. Any opportunity to learn something new, to be challenged anew, is great for character-building by seeing the world through refreshed eyes. Clockmaking or any hobby helps one differentiate from others and provides key examples of overcoming adversity or tackling a difficult situation and emerging on the other side.
American Watch and Clock Collectors Museum, USA
Keeps you youthful. Establishing and maintaining a hobby is a healthy habit to form not just now but for your later years. Hobbies are excellent for brain health and help stave off cognitive decline. The older you become the more difficulty you will have struggling to fill your time with meaningful activities. Beginning a hobby early in life pays dividends in the long run much like an interest-bearing investment.
Schatz W3 bracket clock C. 1950s
Combine your hobby with other interests. Photography and traveling are two other of my interests. Blogging is another, of course. Clockmaking combines all of those interests and as a side benefit my wife, who is also my travel partner and clock locator, provides encouragement every day.
Westclox LaSalle alarm clock C. 1934
It makes one interesting. Talk about your occupation or your grandchild and before long people’s eyes begin to glaze, but mention a clock that fell off a wall during the Halifax Explosion, a clock that hung in a railway station nearby, a rare clock bought for next to nothing and ears perk up.
Junghans Crispi wall clock, C.1898
A great way to relieve stress. Hobbies provide stress relief simply because it is an oasis, a way of disconnecting temporarily and we all need a place of refuge in trying times.
Mauthe wall clock circa 1895
We are nearing the end of the pandemic and folks are returning to their former routines. If you have found a new hobby in the past year there is no doubt you have certainly acquired new skills, renewed confidence and furthered your knowledge. Don’t stop now!
I want to share my experiences dealing with clock suppliers and let me begin by saying that my experiences have been largely positive.
I have been repairing and restoring clocks for the past 10 years and since I live in Canada I generally deal with one mechanical clock parts supplier out of Toronto, Ontario, Perrin. They are excellent for most of my needs, but they do not have everything and from time to time I must locate special or unique parts through other suppliers such as Merritts, Timesavers, and Ronell from the USA and Meadows and Passmorein England.
For example, I recently completed the restoration of an Ingraham Grecian shelf clock, circa 1871, and it required a new set of hands. The hour hand that came with the clock was too short and the minute hand was the incorrect style. My goal in this case is a clock that is as authentic looking as possible and incorrect hands always takes away from a clocks appearance.
My Canadian supplier did not have the correct hands and eventually my search brought me to an out-of-country supplier, Timesavers.
Ingraham Grecian Harris and Sons auction photo
Ingraham Grecian with correct sized moon hands
Had I ordered just a set of hands the shipping cost would have been substantial.
In order to justify the purchase I added additional parts; 2 smoothing broaches, a Seth Thomas #2maintaining spring, brass weight cable, a riffler set, and a bob wire set. The total came to $36US. The shipping and processing fee is $24US. Factoring in the rate of exchange the order cost me $82CDN.
If my Canadian supplier had everything I needed the cost would have been $20 less. It was not a significant difference in this case but it was worth it to find the correct hands.
What are the costs?
The sourcing of parts from various suppliers especially outside Canada can be expensive when administrative costs, shipping fees, exchange rates and import duty are included.
Some suppliers, however, require a minimum order. Others apply a credit card fee for international transactions, still others apply a processing fee and occasionally there is import duty. In almost every case the cost is higher and in some cases, it may not be worth it.
There are a number of choices for shipping but the cheapest method is not always “cheap”. Ground shipping in Canada is fairly inexpensive. Many out-of-country suppliers ship by air and the cost can be significantly higher.
That little $2.99 part can easily cost $20 or more after all costs.
Parts Availability
Seth Thomas Regulator #2
Not every supplier is going to have what you want. There are similarities from one supplier to another but there are also differences. For example, one is likely to find brass carriage clock feet from an English supplier because bracket and carriage clocks are much more common in that part of the world. English suppliers will also carry more tall case, and carriage clock parts and obviously, American suppliers will have many parts for clocks made in the USA.
The upside is that by knowing the various suppliers and their inventories I am able to satisfy most of my clock parts needs. If I only need one part I will always add additional items to justify the shipping and other costs.
My strategy for sourcing parts
If I were in the clock business and required one part, I would pass all costs on to the customer. I do not run a repair service and can afford to put a project aside if it needs parts and wait till I can justify an order.
I build a list of parts using an Excel spreadsheet, and when I feel there is enough to justify an order I pull the trigger. I can afford to wait.
As far as prices are concerned, companies such as Timesavers in the US have locked in their prices till 2022 while prices for some items at Perrin, a Canadian supplier, have increased marginally in the past year. Still, I buy Canadian when I can.
When ordering, if there is an offer of a free parts catalogue I always ask for one.
I also take advantage of every opportunity when I find pendulums, clock keys and other sundry items in flea markets and antique shops and snap them up, IF the price is less than I would buy from a supplier.
Clock parts are not cheap. If you are looking at clockmaking as a hobby factor in the cost of basic and more advanced tools but know that consumables can cost much more in the long run.
From my experience, most suppliers are excellent to deal with are and the service is speedy and professional. Just be mindful of all those other fees. It can really add up!
This clock is an antique store find not too far from where I live. It was high on a shelf and the price was not visible. I asked the shopkeeper to take it down so that I could check the price ($40) and verify that it had a mechanical movement.
Seth Thomas cabinet clock?
I opened the back panel, quickly glanced at the movement and the trademark stamp appeared to be Ansonia. I had worked on an Ansonia Syria shelf clock in the past year and it looked quite similar but it was an odd looking movement for an Ansonia. Ansonia movements generally have an arched plate, this one had a hump. No matter, I bought it.
Ansonia Syria cabinet clock
While at home I was able to examine the clock more closely.
What did I buy?
I discovered that the movement is made by the Seth Thomas Clock Co. not by Ansonia. The movement was made for about 12 years and was available from 1890 to 1902. The style of the case is also from the same period.
An exhaustive search of Seth Thomas clocks on the internet using keywords such as, shelf, parlour (parlor), cabinet, carved oak and mantel produced nothing. I then navigated to a well-known Seth Thomas database site, poured through hundreds of listings and again, zilch.
I began to realize that the case might not have been made by Seth Thomas, after all.
However, I was determined to find the maker. I searched for clocks made by other companies, starting with E.N Welch, Ansonia (because it is similar in style to the Syria), Gilbert, Sessions and finally Waterbury. When I used the term “Waterbury cabinet clock” I found it on an auction site. So, now I have a case made by a different maker than the movement.
What is a marriage?
Among clock circles it is generally accepted that if a clock has significant parts from another source, particularly the movement and put into a period correct case from a different maker, it is considered a marriage. If it has parts sourced from a number of other clocks it is a Frankenstein or Frankenclock. While this clock is not quite a Frankenclock it is certainly a marriage.
Waterbury Wren case
I am actually disappointed that this clock is a marriage
The case is a Waterbury model called the “Wren”. I found three Wren models, two with paper dials and one with the identical dial pan as my clock. It may well be that this dial pan is original to the case.
The concave brass bezel and glass are certainly more recent. When I first looked at the clock I knew that the brass bezel and glass were incorrect but that did not stop me from buying the clock. The original bezel would have been a piecrust design with flat glass. This glass bezel is from a 1930s vintage clock.
The back access door is made of plywood, a recent addition and, of course, there is no label. The original panel would have been made of solid wood and screwed to the sides of the case with a circular tin access port. The label would have been located on the outside under the port door or underneath the base,
Does the movement run?
The movement is complete with pendulum bob and ST key. It was sold as a non-running clock, but will the clock run?
While the movement was still in its case I applied mainspring oil to the tight mainspring, allowing a few minutes for penetration. I then removed the verge so that the time train would run freely, using my finger as a brake on the escape wheel. It was sluggish at first but eventually the sticky time side mainspring made several soft clunking sounds as it ran down.
You can see the very tight time-side mainspring in the next photo. Grime and built-up dirty oil over the years will seize a mainspring.
Once the mainspring was partially let down I reattached the verge and the clock would stop after a minute or so. There was definitely power going to the escape wheel but something else was amiss. It would skip a tooth or two with every rotation which told me that the pallets were too far from the escape wheel. There is an adjustment screw on an arm which allows the pallets to be moved closer (or further) to the escape wheel. I eventually found the correct distance and the clock began to run normally. At the same time I opened the crutch loop wider to allow more impulse.
This is certainly no substitute for an overhaul but a good diagnostic tool.
Meanwhile, the strike side ran perfectly.
The movement is running and keeping good time but it needs a cleaning and several wear issues addressed.
Seth Thomas 8-day time and strike movement
Next steps?
I am actually disappointed it is a marriage. Buying a clock is always a risk and if I had paid many times more for this clock I would have asked for my money back.
I am not sure what I am going to do with it but I am inclined to service it and perhaps put it on the market. If I sold it I would certainly disclose the fact that it has a period correct replacement movement from another maker.
Nevertheless, it would make an attractive clock once the case is cleaned, the movement is properly serviced and has the correct glass and bezel.
This E. Ingraham & Co. clock is a garden variety parlour clock. There is nothing special about it but among parlour clocks, it has nice lines and reflects a more conservative approach to clock designs of the late 19th century. It is an 8-day time and strike clock purchased from a local antique store in the spring of 2019. I have recently serviced a number of clocks in preparation for sale and I also considered selling this one. While I am not in the business of selling clocks I will let go of the odd one to keep my collection manageable. My wife feels that it is a keeper though and I agree.
This was a running clock before I took it apart and my goal is to give it a good cleaning and address wear issues
Stamped in the middle of the front plate is “E Ingraham Co patent date Oct 8, 78 Nov 11, 79, Bristol Conn.” On the inside floor below the pendulum, it is stamped “Manufactured by the E. Ingraham & Co, Bristol Conn”. It was not a common practice to stamp the inside floor but it is an interesting feature.
E Ingraham parlour clock with Swigart dial
Tran Duy Ly’s book on Ingraham clocks shows this model, the Mystic, from the 1897 catalogue. The clock sold new for $6.50. Although found in the 1897 catalogue it might have been made some years earlier. Two numbers are neatly etched into the lower right-hand side of the front plate and they are H25,915 and H27,475. They look like service dates, Sept 1915 and April 1975.
There is a stylized “S” logo on the dial face. Some might mistakenly take it for a Sessions clock. The dial is a replacement made by E&J Swigart, a supplier of replacement dials along with other clock and watch supplies. Swigart went out of business in October of 1992. 1972 was the last year they made reproduction clock dials and this appears to roughly coincide with the 1975 service date.
Assessment of the movement
I have worked on a number of Ingraham movements, some with helper springs and some without. It looks to me that helper springs were added, which is not a bad thing and they will stay on the movement. Installing helper springs to ensure levers drop as they should is not an uncommon practice.
Normally these old movements are in varying degrees of wear and quite often there are punch marks around almost every pivot hole plus they are very dirty. This movement has had 13 bushings installed and is surprisingly clean for its age.
This was a running clock before I took it apart and my goal is to give it a good cleaning and address wear issues along the way. It might require some intervention but my first impression is that it looks very good.
Ingraham Mystic
I found a bent second wheel pivot on the strike side. Before blaming a previous repair it is possible that I was the culprit. Both mainsprings were clamped to restrain their power but when I removed the top plate a wheel sprung out from the strike side. Evidently, the strike side mainspring still had residual power remaining and might have bent the pivot. It was easily straightened.
The main and second wheels on both sides are inscribed for location, so, that is helpful. The strike side mainspring arbour hook has been repaired although the pin is loose and had to be secured. It also appears both mainsprings are replacements. The warning wheel lantern pinion shroud has also been repaired. The clutch on the motion works looks like a repair but I have seen at least one other Ingraham like it, so, I’m not sure.
Ingraham Mystic, warning wheel with additional punch marksIngraham Mystic, motion works clutch
This clock has had a lot of attention and has led an easy life. The repairs are neat and tidy and appear professionally done.
But there is some wear. The clock requires bushings on both the time side and the strike side. One on the time side and 3 on the strike side, one new, and 3 replacement bushings.
Reassembly and testing
The third wheel on the strike side is a combined locking and pin wheel with 2 locking pins and 2 hammer pins. There is no cam on this arbor, unlike many other American movements. The spaces between the pins allow for the drop lever to descend.
The count wheel is advanced by two protruding pins on the third wheel lantern shroud. It is necessary to ensure that the count wheel is firmly in place, not loose but not too tight, so the third wheel pins can advance the count. The warning wheel is set about half a revolution to set up the strike. During reassembly one of the two lock pins is placed on the locking lever, the end of which has a hook. This is to permit the count lever to go into one of the deep slots.
Since I have worked on a couple of Ingraham movements in the last month there was no need to separate the plates to make additional adjustments.
Unlike earlier Ingraham movements that have no passing strike on the half-hour, this has one.
It is on the test stand and I will let it run for a cycle or two before returning it to its case.
Ingraham Mystic on the test stand, beat amplifier attached
It’s really nice to work on a clock that has been so obviously well cared for. It will look great and run well though the only item that detracts from the clock is the Swigart replacement dial.
There is enough confusion among clock collectors and owners of antique and vintage items that it prompts a discussion.
The terms vintage and antique are often used interchangeably, and often incorrectly.
Vintage or antique, Seth Thomas adamantine mantel clock C.1911
According to the United States Government, the term “antique” is reserved for valuables that are over a century old. Webster’s dictionary defines an antique as a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago. Wikipedia defines antique as applying to objects at least 100 years old. Therefore, most sources define the term “antique” as items that are 100 years or more.
The word “vintage”, according to eBay, is a defined period that is less than 100 years but more than 30 years. To many, vintage often means anything that is not new, is dirty, worn, or looks like it might be old if nothing is know about its provenance.
Vintage Fleet Time mantel clock C. 1936
The word vintage is as overused, and misused, as the word “antique”.
The use of the word vintage in auctions is becoming used more. Most often the seller who knows nothing about what they are offering for sale will use the term vintage or even “rare” and hope the buyer is convinced.
Some items that were considered rare many years ago are common today. Take the 30-hour ogee clock which was once considered rare but with the advent of the internet thousands were offered for sale and prices dropped accordingly. “Rare” then became “antique”. What is truly rare today are one-of clocks that have an significant provenance.
The word “collectible” is another clever marketing term, and like the word vintage, has been misused. It presumes that the item offered must be added to what you already have and because it is the one piece you need the most, it will cost you more.
Jewelry is an interesting example. Anything over twenty years old is considered vintage. Some terms like “near” vintage and “true” vintage are often used. I assume any number of years can be assigned to “near” or “true” although “near” seems to mean “almost new” and sounds better than the word “used”.
Antique George H Clark 30-hour ogee clock
In my view no quartz clock has any value. However, in 1970, Junghans invented the Astor-Quartz wristwatch which entered series production in 1972. Watch collectors everywhere would consider the Junghans quartz watch to be a highly collectible vintage timepiece even though it is quartz.
Take the time to research your prospective purchase by consulting various sources which will inform you of the age of the clock you are shopping for.
Some clocks can be dated precisely by serial number, patent date or date stamps on the movements. Many clocks can be dated with some accuracy but often it is a challenge at times to determine the age of a particular clock unless you compare the style and movement type with others of the same period.
Vintage or antique Canadian time wall clock
In my collection is an Arthur Pequegnat Canadian Time clock which is quite old but I do not know it’s exact year of manufacture but I can place it within a range of dates. It was made by the company between 1917 and 1941. There is nothing noteworthy about the movement or style of the case that determines the year it was made.
Whether antique, vintage or collectible, if you enjoy your clock nothing else truly matters.
But, if you are selling a clock it is important to inform your prospective buyer and give them the best information possible to help them make a decision.
After having completed work on the case and dial pan of the Ingraham Grecian time and strike shelf clock it is now on to servicing the movement.
Ingraham Grecian refreshed case
Assessing the movement
The movement is in surprisingly good condition for its age. It has been serviced in the past, when, I don’t know. Here’s what I discovered during the inspection.
In an early servicing, 3 bushing holes were punched. Many years ago clock repairers used a punch to close pivot holes that had elongated after years of wear and it was considered an acceptable practice at that time. Not today!
The mainsprings and alarm spring appear to be original and the alarm mechanism showed no evidence of wear.
At a later point a clock repairer installed 3 brass bushings, 1 on the front plate and 2 on the backplate.
Pivots had been replaced on one end of the warning wheel and one end of the third wheel time-side.
The thin brass strap that trips the alarm has been re-riveted.
Ingraham Grecian, a replaced pivot, a very good job by a past repairer
The repairs were neat and professional.
But there were problems
While there were some decent repairs, someone attempted a homemade fix and it became a non-working clock. I suppose that is to be expected from a clock that is 149 years as it passes through several hands.
It appears that the clock was eventually passed on to someone who had little knowledge of things mechanical. It might have been simply out of beat and an attempt was made to adjust the crutch by twisting the crutch loop around the pendulum leader. I can only assume that in their attempt to access the mechanism to “fix” it, the dial and brass bezel were damaged in the process.
Without impulse the clock would run a minute and stop and would never run in that condition.
I reshaped the crutch loop and bent the crutch slightly to achieve a healthy beat and the clock began to run.
While the clock was running I discovered a bent escape wheel tooth. It was running despite this issue, but the verge would occasionally skip the bent tooth. A bent tooth is often the direct result of transporting a clock without removing the pendulum bob.
Servicing the alarm
There is not much to the alarm mechanism. Three pins hold the 2 small plates. I doubt this alarm was used much, It was taken apart, parts cleaned in the ultrasonic, reassembled and oiled.
Ingraham Grecian, the alarm mechanism
Servicing the movement
After letting down the mainsprings and disassembling the movement the first order of business is to straighten the bent escape wheel tooth. The trick is to “draw out” the tooth out with a pair of smooth flat jawed pliers. It is important not to stretch the tooth as this will introduce other escapement issues. Unbending the tooth is a simple procedure but a disaster if things go wrong.
Ingraham Grecian, a clean movement with a small amount of wear
Next is the inspection of pivots, lantern pinions, wheel teeth, arbours, cut pinions, of which there are two in the motion works. All looked good. The gears were meshing well on both time side and the strike side.
Ingraham Grecian, checking the strike side for wear
Following the inspection is parts cleaning in the ultrasonic machine. Once the parts are dry I inspected the movement more closely for any issues I might have missed. Next is polishing the pivots.
Once the pivots are polished it is time for bushing work if required. In the case of this movement 2 are required for the front plate and 3 for the back. On the backplate, one of the bushings is the escape wheel bridge.
Ingraham Grecian, bushing the escape wheel bridge
There were two other pivot holes that were iffy and okay for now but since I am keeping the clock it will be inspected in 3 or 4 years for wear.
Reassembly comments
The third wheel on the strike side is a combined locking and pin wheel with 2 locking pins and 2 hammer pins. There is no cam, unlike many other American movements. The spaces between the pins allow for the drop lever to descend.
The fourth wheel is the warning wheel only and it is not used for locking.
Unlike later Ingraham movements that have a passing strike on the half-hour, this is an hour strike only.
Ingraham Grecian, the inside pins are for the strike hammer
The count wheel is advanced by two protruding pins on the third wheel lantern shroud, another unusual feature. It is important to ensure that the count wheel is firmly in place, not loose but not too tight, so the third wheel pins can advance the count. The stiffness can be adjusted by bending the brass clip on the count wheel.
During reassembly, the warning wheel is set about half a revolution to prepare for the strike. Also during reassembly one of the two lock pins is placed on the locking lever, the end of which has a hook. This is to permit the count lever to go into one of the deep slots.
Ingraham Grecian movement on the test stand
Sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it right. Usually, I must make an adjustment or two after the plates are together but I was lucky the first time.
Ingraham Grecian shelf clock C.1871
When I finished servicing the movement the new hands arrived from a supplier. So, here it is with new hands attached and the movement back in the case.
Perhaps recognizable as one of the most common regulator clocks in America, the Seth Thomas Regulator #2 was found in many railway stations, offices. libraries and other public places across America during the last century, a testament to its accuracy and dependability. It is a robust, accurate, well-engineered, and dependable timepiece that was made by Seth Thomas from 1860 to 1950, a run of 90 remarkable years. Few clocks can claim that kind of longevity.
It is an iconic American clock and every serious clock collector wants one.
Seth Thomas Regulator #2
This particular clock was made between 1922 and 1929 and has a base reminiscent of the earlier 1860 version of the #2. It has Arabic numbers with spade hands. The bow-tie between the wood dial bezel and the drop is one piece while earlier versions had a 3-piece “bow-tie”. It has a seconds hand 2 inches above the center cannon. However, it is not a true seconds hand and runs off the escapement taking 80 beats to complete the “minute”. All but the earliest #2s had the pendulum mounted in the rear.
It is 36 ½ inches tall and veneered in mahogany. It has 77A stamped on the bottom right of the movement with the letter “K” underneath and has a small ST stamp near the middle of the front plate. Some versions of the 77 have lantern pinions while this has cut or leaf pinions.
Seth Thomas Regulator #2
It has stopped – it needs a cleaning and perhaps a bushing or two
Lately, the clock has been stopping intermittently. I would nudge the clock along and it would run 5-10 minutes at a time and stop. I replaced the suspension spring and all seemed good as the clock ran for a couple of weeks. I thought I had addressed the issue but it began to stop again!
I bought the clock three years ago. It was oiled shortly after I received it but it has not been serviced and now it is telling me that servicing is long overdue.
Seth Thomas #2 suspension spring, old on left
The movement is relatively simple in that it has 4 wheels. I disassembled the movement, pegged the pivot holes, and re-assembled it. There is wear but I have seen far worse in clocks that continue to run well. However, It appears that this movement does not tolerate wear.
Very disturbing are the aggressive, deep punch marks around most of the pivot holes. Punching around pivot holes to close them might have been an acceptable practice many years ago, but not today. The repair is crude and unprofessional.
Seth Thomas #2, aggressive punch marks around all four wheels on the backplate
The leaf pinions are in very good condition, wheel teeth look good and the verge has minimal wear.
Servicing the movement
In total up to 6 bushings are required.
I also discovered a slightly bent third-wheel arbour that did not take much effort to straighten.
Seth Thomas #2, very simple with just 4 wheels
Despite its apparent simplicity the parts are made to close tolerances and any wear has the potential to stop the clock. I don’t think this is a good movement for the novice clock repairer.
I installed three bushings on the backplate; the second, third wheels, and the escape wheel, and two on the front; third wheel, the escape wheel, and the verge pivot hole front plate.
Seth Thomas #2, minus the motion works
The movement is clean, shiny, and mounted in the case for testing and minus the motion works gears.
Seth Thomas #2, test phase; the second hand is on to give me a quick visual as I pass by the clock
Despite the fact that I have 4 movement test stands, none are appropriate for this movement because of the iron bracket onto which the movement and pendulum are mounted. I suppose I could probably adapt something. For now, into the case it goes for testing.
After three weeks the clock is running very well.
Seth Thomas #2
While the movement was out of the case I replaced both the maintaining power spring and the old cable with 3/64 inch brass weight cable. The brass cable has one feature I really like, a nylon core that prevents it from coiling. I also gave the pendulum bob and weight a polishing.
Cleaning and bushing work put the clock right. After the wear issues were addressed the clock not only runs better but polishing the brass improves its appearance.
Ingraham Grecian Harris and Sons auction photo (with permission)
This attractive shelf clock was bought on an online auction in early January 2021. From the auction photos, I expected a clock that required attention and now, having received it, I am pleasantly surprised that it is in better condition than I thought.
Under the auction studio light (first photo), the case might appear to look reasonably good. Closeup, there is a lot of oily dirt and grime. Servicing the movement will wait for another day. Restoring the case and dial is first.
The vibrant grain of rosewood is there, underneath the grime
Restoration of the case and dial pan
The design of the E. Ingraham Grecian 8-day time and strike shelf clock is neoclassical. It is not only aesthetically pleasing to patrons of the nineteenth century but remains so today. it is timeless.
The age-old debate about what to do with a clock case often arises. Some say, “leave it”, the finish, however grimy is part of a clock’s history. I am not of that camp. If I found the perfect classic car in an old barn I would not leave the dirt and grime on the finish to preserve its patina? Rather, I would polish it to show it off to the world.
This clock is not a candidate for stripping the finish. Stripping is a last resort. Good old fashioned soap and water work is perfect for a project such as this.
Old clocks especially those that are over 100 years old are generally very dirty and the grime is layered. The home environment was a very different place a century ago. Smoking in the home was common, many homes had wood and coal fires for heat, humidity varied because of poor insulation and anything in suspension landed on the furniture. This Ingraham clock is no exception. The rosewood veneer deserves to be shown off and that can only be achieved by peeling off the dirt to reveal the texture of the grain underneath.
Ingraham Grecian Harris and Sons auction photo (with permission)
For cleaning, I prefer a light coloured microfiber cloth so that I can visualize how much dirt I am removing as I proceed with the cleaning. I use several during the course of the project. Diluted Murphy’s soap is used for the case and full strength for the stubborn areas.
Rubbing is required but I don’t want to get too carried away as the cloth might snag a piece of the veneer on a corner. I start with a discreet area first to see what effect the cleaning is having. Working one section at a time, I clean down to the veneer. Any shellac that remains will be removed during the cleaning.
The case looks bleached after the cleaning but a damp cloth will show the grain, the effect shellac will have once the cleaning stage is complete.
I let the case dry thoroughly before applying the first coat of shellac. Shellac is prepared in the traditional manner, flakes and lacquer thinner and mixed to a one pound cut allowing fast drying.
For this project, I applied 2 coats of shellac. Between coats, I used 4X0 steel wool to smooth out any imperfections. After the second coat, I use steel wool to take away the glossy look of the shellac.
Next is the dial.
Ingraham Grecian shelf clockIngraham Grecian clock, the dial is detached from the bezel
Above is a photo of the dial when I received the clock. It is off-center because nothing is securing the dial face to the brass bezel.
The rear of the dial, 2 new dial tabs
Two of the four tabs securing the dial face on the rear of the brass bezel were broken. The arrows show the two new tabs. I am not a whiz with a soldering iron and did the best I could but the results, to me, are acceptable. The thin brass tabs were sourced from a supplier. The tabs, once secured, are bent to secure the dial in place.
Ingraham Grecian
The numerals were in-painted. The dial was in generally good condition though there were losses outside the chapter ring. I mixed and matched paint to touch up the areas of paint loss, and installed a new grommet to replace the missing time-side one. The brass bezel, inner brass ring, and strike side grommet were polished with Brasso as the last step.
E. Ingraham Grecian shelf clock
The case and dial part of the project is complete and in a future post I will address servicing the movement.
It should have been an easy fix but often when working with clock movements unexpected issues occasionally crop up.
The clock was purchased in the fall of 2018. This Seth Thomas #2 Regulator has had little done to it except oiling the movement and cleaning up the case. It is one of the most accurate mechanical clocks in my collection which is no surprise since these clocks were originally designed for offices and railways.
According to an online database, the lower section of the case was redesigned in 1922. This allows me to date the clock somewhere between 1922 and 1929. 77 weight-driven movements are very common. They were made sometime after 1915 and well into the 1940s. Perhaps the letter “K” under the 77A stamp on the movement is a clue as to exactly when it was manufactured.
It has a very attractive mahogany finish and it is a real conversation piece. There are probably more oak regulators than any other type of wood, so, mahogany, although not rare, is uncommon.
Seth Thomas Regulator #2
The suspension spring
A suspension spring is a thin band of steel called a “spring” by horologists by which the pendulum of a clock is suspended. It separates the pendulum rod and bob from the mounting post. Its purpose is to assist in controlling the rate of the pendulum swing.
The suspension spring looked tired when I first inspected the clock in 2018 and it was time for a replacement, sourced from my go-to Canadian supplier, Perrins.
Seth Thomas Regulator #2 base design
What should have taken minutes stretched to an hour or more
Seth Thomas Regulator #2 (77A (K)), the iron bracket is just behind the movement
Removing the movement prior to replacing the spring
Removing the movement consists of first removing the hands. A screw secures the minute hand while the hour hand is a friction fit and pulls straight out. The second hand also pulls off. Eight screws hold the face in place; 6 outside the chapter ring and two on either side of the second hand. Once the face is removed there is a wood crossbar, held by two larger screws in front of and either side of the movement, that must be removed.
Then the weight, which is hooked onto the pulley, is removed. There are 4 posts on the front of the movement, inboard on the bottom and above the plate screws on the top. They do not come out entirely but once unscrewed, the movement is released from an iron mounting bracket.
Next, the pendulum/rod which is hooked onto the suspension spring on the bracket is lifted out and put aside.
The movement is mounted on a heavy cast iron bracket
Replacing the suspension spring
Once the bracket was exposed I thought it would be a simple matter of swapping out the old suspension spring for the new one. If it was not original, it is, nevertheless, quite old and likely weak with age. It probably can be done in place but it is much easier simply removing the cast iron mounting bracket which is held in place by 4 wood screws.
Seth Thomas #2 suspension spring, old on left, new on right
Laying the bracket out flat simplifies pushing out the pin holding the suspension spring.
Movement bracket for Seth Thomas #2
I have come to learn that replacement parts from a supplier often must be made to fit and the suspension spring I bought is no exception. Using a pair of pliers, the pin was pushed out of the block. Once out I reamed the hole so that I did not have to struggle to install it. Except that the new pin did not fit the smaller hole in the post. So, rather than use the old pin a tapered brass pin replaced it.
Re-installation and testing
The bracket is then screwed back into the case with the suspension spring in place. The pendulum attaches to the end of the horizontal pins of the suspension spring but it is important to ensure that the end of the crutch wire, which has a 90-degree bend and hangs down from the movement goes through the opening in the pendulum.
The movement, face, and hands go back onto the clock. Push the hour hand in far enough, otherwise, it will rub against the minute hand and stop the clock.
There is very little space between the hour hand and the second’s hand. This is by design, and if you do not push the second’s hand in far enough you will know soon enough when interference stops the clock.
Level the clock case on the wall and observe the action of the pendulum.
What should have taken minutes stretched to over an hour. Now that the new suspension spring is in place, I have had a chance to look over the movement and it will be scheduled for a full servicing in the next month or so.
In the meantime, the clock is running well; there is slightly more amplitude in the pendulum swing than previously and it is keeping excellent time.
Canadian clock collectors are most familiar with the Arthur Pequegnat Clock Company that closed its doors in 1941 but 7 years later a number of clock companies were alive and flourishing in Canada, predominantly in areas in and around Toronto.
It is difficult to imagine that seventy years ago there were ten active clock companies in Canada. Unfortunately, none of these companies survived beyond the late 1970s.
Could any of these companies survive today?
Here are the ten Canadian clock manufacturers in no particular order:
BRESLIN INDUSTRIES: of Toronto: Clocks were a sideline for this company run by the Breslin family, whose products were focused on lamps, lampshades, and novelties. The only clocks in existence have horses as the typical 1950s theme. The wind-up movements are the same Ingraham type used by Snider, another company on this list.
INGRAHAM CANADIAN CLOCK COMPANY of Toronto. Ingraham clocks were being made by the original American company in Bristol, Connecticut from the mid-1800s. The Canadian factory was located in Toronto from the late 1940s until at least 1980. Wall and alarm models, the latter with wind-up or electric movements, were made for the Canadian market. Representative examples of typical alarm, kitchen, and starburst wall clocks with Ingraham Canadian, Ingraham Canadian Clock Co. Ltd, or Ingraham plus Made in Canada on the dial. The novelty windup alarm clocks, The Westerner and The Mountie are popular with collectors of animated models.
WESTCLOX CANADAof Peterborough, Ontario: The parent company started making alarm clocks in LaSalle, Illinois, near Chicago, before 1900. The Canadian factory operations began in Peterborough in 1920. The new building was ready in 1923. Business was so good that additions were put on several times up to the 1950s.
Westclox Peterborough plant
However, by the mid-1980s the North American Westclox factories were closing down in favour of lower labour costs from China. Westclox is best known for its millions of Big Ben and Baby Ben windup and electric alarm clocks made in various styles between 1920 and the early 1980s in Canada. The company also make wall clocks for kitchens, dining, and recreation rooms starting in the 1930s. If collecting, avoid Westclox alarm clocks made in China.
Westclox LaSalle alarm clock, assembled in Peterborough, Ontario
SETH THOMAS CLOCKSof Peterborough, Ontario: This old company was founded by Seth Thomas in the early 1800s in Plymouth, Connecticut (now Thomaston). In 1931 it became part of General Time Corporation, which owned Westclox. Seth Thomas brand mantel, alarm, and wall clocks were produced for the Canadian market in the Westclox factory from 1931 to the mid-1980s. However, inferior clocks produced under the Talley Industries brand are avoided by serious collectors.
NEW HAVEN CLOCK COMPANYof Brantford, Ontario: The parent company was based in New Haven, Connecticut originating in1900. Some mantel and wall clocks were made in Brantford with Canadian wood cases, but the spring-driven pendulum movements were brought in from the U.S. factory. Most clocks were made for schools and offices.
New Haven schoolhouse clock, made in the USA but assembled in Brantford, Ontario
FORESTVILLE CLOCK COMPANY of Toronto: Set up by Leopold and Sarah Stossel as the Blackforest Clock Company in Toronto in 1928 the name changed to the Forestville Clock Company in 1941 because of World War II, and continued in business until the late 1970s. Forestville sourced movements from England, France and Germany.
1970s Forestville Westminster chime, Canadian case(?) with German movement
Blackforest shelf clock circa 1939
CANADIAN NEON-RAY CLOCK COMPANY: The main product was “Bulb Illuminated” advertising clocks. this business was in operation from about 1942 to the mid-1960s In Montreal. Many companies purchased these clocks to advertise their products such as soft drinks, beer, service station items like motor oil and spark plugs, ice cream, paints, meats, and mattresses. French-language, as well as English advertising clocks, are commonly found in Canada.
CANADIAN GENERAL ELECTRIC of Barrie, Ontario. In addition to large industrial electrical components, CGE produced electric alarm, table, and kitchen wall clocks for the Canadian market from the 1930s into at least the 50s. CGE kitchen wall and alarm clocks were produced in large numbers.
SNIDER CLOCK MANUFACTURING COMPANY LIMITED of Toronto. The Snider Clock Corporation and its successor, the Snider Clock Mfg Company, flourished for over twenty-five years (1950 to 1976). Their success is a tribute to Harry Snider and his family for the many unique clock designs that were created, to the effective construction methods developed by Harry and then Michael Snider for them, and to their business skills in promoting and selling their clocks through hundreds of stores across Canada.
Former location of the Snider Clock Company
WALTER CLOCKS of Toronto. The main product was mantel clocks. All of the cases were made in Toronto. At least a dozen different models were produced in the mid to the late 1930s before WWII. During that time, both time & strike and Westminster chimes spring-driven movements were imported from Britain and Germany. The war meant that overseas movements were not available and clock production stopped. But many more models were made after WWII, from the late 1940s through to the late 1950s. The prewar models had walnut veneer cases and hinged back doors. The removable round door on the back of the postwar models mostly made with less expensive, stained birch wood, was unique. Production continued up to the late 1950s when the last of the Walter Clocks mantel clocks were made.
Gone forever. It is a shame. Gone is the knowledge, expertise, and entrepreneurship. Could any of these companies survive today? No, they were important in their day, thrived on innovation and some were ahead of their time but the world is a different place today.
The ad: Herschede Sheffied Grandfather clock $2,500 Model #230, 9 tube, 3 different chimes, moondial, chime/silent, burlwood, original wind/door keys, has been recently serviced.
Photo in clock ad
Okay so, you want to sell your clock but for $2500 shouldn’t the photo be better than this? And Sheffield is spelt wrong!
Tick-Talk Tuesday is about the letters and comments I have received from you, the reader, concerning your clock, issues you might have had, challenges you face or a clock you would like me to profile or my responses to your questions with advice on your particular clock concern. For those comments and questions that stump even me, I consult within my clock circles for the best possible answer
Double-ended keys
TD says,
“Hi Ron, I’m TD. I purchased a Gilbert Clock from an antique store in xxxxxxx, Wis. It’s a Gilbert Tambour style mantel clock model 2041. It’s marked “Normandy Chime 2041.” The question I have is what is the keyhole under number 12 for? The clock sat in the store for a long time, that is till it found ME. I have a thing for old clocks. I feel they’re a living thing and it’s a shame if they’re not ticking away as long as they’re able to. Just like Us!”
Gilbert mantel clock 1925, small arbour below the 12 is for regulating the clock
Gilbert movement, the top centre is the regulating mechanism
My response,
Hi TD,
I have a Gilbert tambour 2038 with Normandy Chime which is similar in some ways. Look at the key that came with your clock. It should be doubled ended one like this one.
The small end fits into an arbor just below the “12”. This is for regulating the speed of your clock. You might see an “S” and an ”F” above the 12. Turning the key clockwise speeds up the clock and counterclockwise slows it down. If you have only a single-ended key, it is the wrong type for your clock although it will wind it up.
I also have a thing for old clocks. Be careful it is addictive.
Hope this helps.”
Whoops! Should have been published on Tuesday. My wife caught the error this morning.
Tick-Talk Tuesday is about the letters and comments I receive from you, the reader, concerning your clock, issues you might have had, challenges you face or a clock you would like me to profile. I give my responses to your question(s) and provide advice on your particular clock concern. For those comments and questions that stump even me, I consult within my clock circles for the best possible answer
8-day Waterbury ogee clock
It’s an 1870 Waterbury clock, it’s not in the best shape but it seems so sad to see family heirloom that’s was passed down over the years just tossed aside
AS writes,
I have been interested in old clocks and have 4. My maternal great grandparents were all watchmakers in England and I wished they were still alive to teach me the trade. The other day I found this old clock in a second-hand store and I fell in love with, It’s an 1870 Waterbury clock, it’s not in the best shape but it seems so sad to see family heirloom that’s was passed down over the years just tossed aside, I loved it so I bought, It needs some repair and would love to repair it myself, do you have any advice on where I can get it to fix or how to fix it myself I have tried online to find a diagram of the inside so I have an idea on how to fix but found nothing.
Waterbury 8-day ogee clock movement – side view
My reply,
Hi and thanks for coming to my blog.
I have no doubt that the clock you bought is from the 1870s. The style is called “Ogee” because of the curved veneer molding. Yours is unusual in that it has two front doors rather than the typical one door. You are correct; it needs love and attention.
I have several suggestions for you. One, you can learn about servicing clocks by taking courses online. Dave LeBounty is one source. They are not free, however.
Two, there is a clock forum site operated by the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors (NAWCC). It is free to post, you do not need a paid membership and you can ask questions about your clock and get some guidance on how to repair it.
Waterbury 8-day ogee clock movement
Three, Steven Conover has several excellent books on clock repair. He has one that focuses on time and strike movements, like yours. It is an excellent guide and easy to follow.
Fourth, You can get your hands dirty by taking out the movement and taking it apart yourself. I can walk you through the process.
Hope this helps.
Waterbury 8-day ogee clock movement – backplate
AS replies,
Thank you for your reply, and advice. I will look into the NAWCC, Would love to try and fix it myself, as it would be a joy to learn the craft and maybe save other old clocks. The only clock repair here in New Glasgow closed years ago, so there is no one here to do repairs which is a shame as these old clocks are a part of history and should be saved. I have managed to get the gearbox out, it is in need of a good cleaning and does need some parts, It doesn’t have a spring but 2 ropes that wrap around 2 gears and spindles on either side then attach to 2 weights. The ropes need replacing as well as new weights, If you could walk me through it that would be wonderful. It is a grand old piece and I would love to see it working again.
Note: There are far more 30-hour ogees than there is the 8-day type. I have not come across one in quite some time. In my collection, my 4 ogees are all 30-hour clocks.
The antique clock and the dilemma of identity. Some may feel this is much ado about nothing but discussion on identity and antique clocks tends to prompt a lot of debate. Let me explain.
Let’s say you are looking for that particular antique clock and you think you have finally found it. The photos look great and the description hits all of the boxes on your list. Let’s assume you found it locally and are meeting the seller soon to close the deal. You arrive, they present the clock and you notice things that are not quite right with the clock. The clock you thought was an authentic antique has been changed over the years and the seller may or may not even be aware of the changes. If the clock has been changed is it an antique in the truest sense of the word. You walk away feeling that too much has been done to the clock and continue your search.
A clock collector might have the opinion that if too much is done to restore a clock it is not fundamentally the same and cannot be considered original even though the new parts were made from the same materials using similar methods when the clock was first made. An antique shopper who knows little about clocks might not be bothered by the changes if the clock “looks” original.
Another might have the opinion that changes or alterations to the clock that bring it back to its original look and function including the making of new parts make it more “original” and therefore more desirable. But has the clock changed its identity during the change process and is it less original if it has undergone restoration?
Here are some examples.
From This.
Ansonia Extra Drop wall clock that some would have thrown out
To this.
Not perfect but saved from the trash heap
From this.
Junghans Crispi wall clock in a parts box
To this.
Junghans Crispi wall clock resurrected from the grave
If one replaces one part at a time on a clock so that at some point all parts are replaced, at what point does a clock no longer become the same clock? It follows that if you take all of those parts and make a “new” clock which of the two clocks is original? What is the nature of the clock’s identity since no two objects can occupy the same identity? This is an example of a thought argument that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.
I was working on a clock recently that was said by its owner to be an antique. At first glance, it looked original. The case was a little tired, the movement looked like it was cared for or at least properly serviced at some point in its life. As I began to examine it more closely I discovered several anomalies. Although the movement was the “correct” maker as the case, the movement was taken from a kitchen clock and slightly modified to fit the case. Is this clock still an antique or has it strayed too far away from the definition of an antique because it is a “marriage”
People pay for originality. For my money, I prefer a well-cared-for clock in original condition. I will take a second look if it has been tastefully restored or repaired and know that it is better than having it trashed or perhaps parted out. However, I would not expect to pay as much for a “changed” clock”
If a clock is overly restored how should it be valued? I am not against conservation or restoration but if a clock was two steps away from a garbage can is it less valuable if restored?
There are no clear answers. There will always be buyers who demand originality and those who overlook certain changes. Is this much ado about nothing?
Over the summer of 2020, I was asked to service a friend’s clock. It is an attractive machine-carved oak Ansonia Syria parlour clock in the popular Arts and Crafts style of the late 19th century.
Ansonia Syria
It has great sentimental value to my friend but she recognized that it was in need of adjustment or repair. It had been in her late husband’s family for a number of years and she wanted it to preserve it as a reminder of his life.
This is Part II of a two-part series. My general comments and first impressions are found in Part I which you can find here.
It is an attractive clock in relatively good shape for its age. From my research, I have determined that it was made sometime in the early to mid-1890s.
Time and strike movement with an 1882 patent date
In this post, I will continue with disassembly, cleaning, general comments about the condition of the movement, and any potential trouble spots.
Dis-assembly and servicing the movement
The movement is held in the case by 4 screws. Once out of the case the first order of business is to restrain the mainsprings with mainspring C-clamps before separating the plates. Safety is paramount; those springs are powerful.
Although C-clamps are the round type in the following photo I prefer flat clamps for most American movements. Either will do but flat clamps are perfect for tight spaces.
Olie Baker spring winder
After disassembly, my Olie Baker spring winder was put into action to unwind the spring, inspect it for cracks, surface rust, or any other issues.
Each mainspring is stretched out and cleaned with a Scotchbight pad and WD-40. It is carefully wiped down leaving no trace of the WD-40 and placed in the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 minutes. Once out of the ultrasonic cleaner, you must work quickly to dry and clean the mainspring. Rust is insidious and will creep in quickly.
The mainsprings looked very good and once cleaned and carefully inspected I have no hesitation reusing them.
A mainspring is cleaned, oiled and returned to its arbour
I applied a drop of Keystone mainspring oil on each of the coils, wound the spring several times to spread the oil. Once the C-clamp is re-applied and hooked on to the arbour, the excess oil is wiped away. The clicks are in good shape, sometimes a weakness in American movements. At this point, there is nothing more to be done to the mainsprings until the movement is assembled, so, let’s put them aside.
I try to minimize wrestling with American time and strike movement so that once I have the top plate on I loosely attach the bottom two screws and move to the time side because the strike side wheels and levers can be the most frustrating to position correctly and are left to the last
Everything is ready for the next step
I inspected each of the wheels and pivots for wear and found everything including the lantern pinions to be in generally very good condition with one exception. There is minor wear on the flywheel lantern pinions but not enough to warrant replacement at this point.
I usually put the time and strike gears and pretty much everything else in one or two containers. When you have done many movements you learn to quickly identify the location of each component. I can take out any wheel or lever, for example, and identify its specific location. However, if you are just starting out or have not built up enough confidence I highly recommend separating the two sides. In the early days of clock servicing, that is exactly what I did.
I was curious to find that a past repairer scratched “S” (for strike) and “T” (for time) on each one of the wheels according to their location. I understand why but esthetically it does not look good. However, marking the mainspring arbours came in handy. I make it a point to return each mainspring on the arbour they came from. In most cases, the mainsprings are the same length and thickness but every now and then I come across two different sizes. Better to be safe than sorry. That aside the movement appears to be in good condition.
A bushing is marked for replacement
Once the parts are cleaned and dried and the pivot holes are pegged it is on to the next step, pivot polishing. I use a #11 Emory board to polish pivots. I secure each of the wheels in a 3-jaw chuck on my Taig metal lathe and move the Emory boards in an up and down motion to polish the pivots.
Taig lathe at its slowest speed setting
Following the polishing, it is on to any bushing work that may be needed. In the case of this movement, two bushings were needed, the second wheel, front plate and the fourth wheel backplate. Here, a new Bergeon brass bushing is pushed into the bottom plate.
New Bergeon bushing. Notice the fixed lifting lever, lower left
Movement Re-assembly
And now for re-assembly and testing.
Since the lifting lever is attached to the bottom plate and is otherwise immoveable the count lever is the only component that has to be put in its correct location.
I try to minimize wrestling with American time and strike movement so that once I have the top plate on I loosely attach the bottom two screws and move to the time side because the strike side wheels and levers can be the most frustrating to position correctly and are left to the last.
All is ready for the top plate
Once the time side wheels and the hour gear are in place I attach the third screw and then work the wheels and levers into place on the strike side. Once everything is in place I tighten all the screws. A pivot locator is your best friend when re-assembling any movement.
Pivot locator
On the first attempt, I was not able to synch the strike side locking wheel (sometimes you get lucky the first time) but I mounted the movement on the test stand overnight to check out the time side and the next day it was running as expected. The locking wheel pin needs to be adjusted but that can wait till tomorrow.
One issue raised its head after re-assembly. The strike side gears were not moving at all. I tested each gear and found the flywheel (governor) was sluggish and had no end shake. It freed up if the nut nearest the flywheel was loose enough. The reason. A past repairer installed a bushing that was too tall for the plate. End shake allows freedom of the movement when the plates are screwed tightly down. I filed down the protruding bushing on the inside of the plate and the strike side then ran smoothly.
On the test stand
Next day
Now to open up the top part of the strike side to reposition the locking wheel. Safety first. I restrain the mainsprings just in case the whole thing explodes. I re-positioned the stop pin so that it is resting on the stop lever and presto, everything is working as it should.
I would like to refresh the case but the owner left strict instructions to leave it as-is.
Over the summer I was asked to service a friend’s clock. It is an attractive machine-carved oak Ansonia Syria parlour clock in the popular Arts and Crafts style of the late 19th century.
”my poor clock needs a good servicing and cleaning. It runs slow, eg. I set it and would it on Sunday and by Friday it’s about 14 minutes slow, about 2-3 minutes per day, and it needs new hands”
It has great sentimental value to my friend but she recognized that it was in need of adjustment or repair. It had been in her late husband’s family for a number of years and she wanted it to preserve it as a reminder of his life.
Ansonia Syria mantel clock
It was in a well-packed box and in it was a note. The note said, ”my poor clock needs a good servicing and cleaning. It runs slow, eg. I set it and would it on Sunday and by Friday it’s about 14 minutes slow, about 2-3 minutes per day, and it needs new hands”.
Packaged with care
I opened the box, attached the pendulum, gave both arbours several turns, and started the clock. The fact that it is in running order and striking correctly is certainly a positive sign and testament to the fact that it was serviced in the past. Does it need a simple cleaning and regulating or is something else going on?
Apart from a couple of nicks and scratches, the case looks good. I asked the owner if she would like the case reconditioned and she said she prefers it the way it is. Fair enough.
The Ansonia Syria is an attractive mantel clock and according to the label affixed to the inside of the back access door, it is an 1878 Paris Exposition winner. This is helpful because it allows the clock to be dated. On the movement, there is a patent date of June 18, 1882. It is probably safe to say that it was made within a few years of the 1882 date which puts it in the late -1880s to 1890s. Tran Duy Ly in his book on Ansonia clocks (page 245) lists the year of manufacture as 1894.
The Ansonia Clock Company competed with many popular clock companies of the time; Waterbury, Gilbert, Seth Thomas, E. N. Welch, and New Haven to name a few.
Let’s look into this clock a little further. A few interesting anomalies struck me as I examined the clock case and the movement.
Just above the 12, there is a brass insert that looks like the head of a large pin. It is there to conceal a hole. Although difficult to see in the photo, the letters “S” and “F” appear at either side of the pin. The pin hides the hole for the regulator. Clocks with this type of regulator come with two-sided keys and the smaller end is used to insert into the hole and regulate the clock to slow it down or speed it up. The dial pan is also held in place by common nails.
This movement in this case does not have a regulator mechanism and the mechanism was not removed from the movement. This is a period-correct Ansonia replacement movement that originally came out of a kitchen clock with an alarm. The alarm would have been attached to an activating lever which has been cut off on this movement (see the centre of below shot).
The base of the alarm actuatorStandoffs on the back of the movement
In the above photo, you can see standoffs on the rear plate and clearly standoffs on the front plate. The front standoffs are fashioned from a brass ribbon, bent, drilled out, and cut to fit. The clock is, what we term in the clock business, a marriage. It is always nice to see that it has a movement from the same manufacturer and from the same period as the clock case but a marriage certainly reduces its desirability and makes it difficult to classify it as an antique.
Next, the suspension spring post has been re-soldered, loose perhaps.
And lastly, the hour hand is a replacement. The original hour hand would have been a trident style.
That having been said, the clock has great sentimental value for the owner, and the fact that it is a marriage and has undergone changes over the years may not be a factor.
The movement has been worked on in the past. There are 16 replacement bushings. The bushing work looks professional and after a first look perhaps 2 or 3 require replacement though none on the strike side. Otherwise, the movement was dirty and had thick black-greenish oil residue on several pivots. Not surprising in an antique clock but indicative of some level of wear. The mainsprings were dripping with brown oil, but I have seen a lot worse.
The next step is to service the movement. Part 2, in four days’ time will detail disassembly, bushing work, and general cleaning.
Some time ago I wrote an article on an interesting acquisition, an Ansonia Extra Drop, a true barn find.
This Ansonia Extra Drop time-only Rosewood veneered wall clock was manufactured in the early 1880s by what was then known as the Ansonia Brass and Copper Company.
It was in pretty rough shape when I bought it and the only significant part missing is the brass dial bezel and a number of minor items such as the verge, hands, pendulum bob, suspension spring/rod, and the drop access door (which I made later on).
I was challenged by the whole prospect of putting the many pieces back together and giving what most would consider a throw-away movement, a second chance.
A sad-looking and seized time-only movement
Here is the movement when I found it. What a sight! I thought if I stripped away all the rust and dirt something of value would be salvageable. How many of you would simply toss it out?
After disassembly, scrubbing, cleaning, and one new escape wheel bushing here is the final result.
Cleaned and serviced time only movement
First servicing
The fact that the spring was unwound on the movement when I received it tells me two things. One, the chance that it is “set” is reduced and secondly, having an open coil means more surface rust on the outer part of the spring.
I did my best to remove most of the rust on the mainspring and it went back in the movement. A short while later I discovered that the clock would only run if I wound it about halfway. Otherwise, if wound tight it would not run at all. The surface rust was evidently causing it to stop.
Some clockmakers who after observing any rust on a mainspring would immediately toss it out and argue that the spring is weaker because of the presence of surface rust. In this case, the mainspring is unsightly but has no cracks and has plenty of power.
Other repairers apply a liquid or gel, black tea, or even use electrolytic rust removal to extricate the rust. I know I risk igniting a debate about mainspring replacement and if I were in the business of clock repair, I would certainly toss out the mainspring and pass the cost on to the customer. However, I am hesitant to spend money on a new mainspring for what is essentially a $5.00 barn-find clock and my challenge was to spend as little money as possible on this clock.
During the initial servicing, I managed to get rid of most of the mainspring rust.
Second servicing
Still some problems. After several months I took it apart again, ran the parts through my new ultrasonic cleaner which I did not have at the time of the first servicing. I placed the mainspring in as well. Scotch Brite abrasive pad and WD40 combined are excellent for cleaning a mainspring and I was able to effectively smooth out the rough and rusty outer sections of the mainspring. Again, I checked for cracks and suspicious imperfections and found none. After rubbing the abrasive pad over the mainspring several times I gave it a healthy coating of Keystone mainspring oil. A smoother, rust-free mainspring should function a lot better.
Rather than mount the movement on the test stand, I installed it back into its case but left the dial off so I could monitor it more closely. It runs very well and has run several full 8-day cycles.
Ansonia movement in its case
I realize that I have pushed the limit of this mainspring and the next step is a replacement but we’ll see what happens after the testing period.
Weeks later
The movement continues to run well and now it is time to put everything back together.
Tick-Talk Tuesday is about the letters and comments I have received from you, the reader, concerning your clock, issues you might have had, challenges you face or a clock you would like me to profile and my responses to your questions with advice on your particular clock concern. For those comments and questions that stump even me, I consult within my clock circles for the best possible answer
Gilbert mantel clock
DG writes
“Hello again Ron,
Firstly, many thanks for your advice. It was extremely helpful. The clock is running, striking the right number of times and back in its case, adjusted for beat and now just getting it to keep reasonable time. I made up two pivot locators (a good suggestion) from wire, one heavy-duty to get the centre pillar in place (it always seemed out of alignment!) and another to adjust the pivots. I had trouble in getting some of the pivots to stay in place long enough to close the front and back plates as I went along so resorted to some Blu Tack on the bottom bush to hold them – not very professional but I couldn’t think of anything else. Getting the strike to work as it should was a total challenge and took me a long time but I got there in the end (probably the most satisfying part of the whole business). I am afraid it wasn’t a very professional restoration but I learnt a lot about Gilbert clocks in the process!
The date stamped on the movement is 1914. I’ve attached a photo of the front of the clock. It looks to me as though it had something attached to the bottom, front corners (there are two pin holes each side) which I am guessing were feet. Have you any idea what these might have looked like? Looking at pictures on the Internet there seem to have been slightly different styles as well as gold and a dark antique look, on Gilbert clocks. Any idea where I might find some – eBay?
Once again, many thanks.”
My reply
“It is certainly a good feeling putting a mechanical clock back together and have it in working order. If you can manage a Gilbert clock you can handle just about any American time and strike movement.
which has a piecrust dial instead of the plain dial on your clock. You are correct. It would have had feet at one time. If one went missing I suspect they were all discarded.
While I admire the ingenuity and creativity of clock repairpersons many years ago some of the repairs are downright scary and dangerous. I say clock repairpersons because may were back yard mechanics with minimal clock skills that were paid to “just get his thing running”.
In this article, I will describe some of the strange repairs in clocks I have worked on over the years.
Let’s start with this interesting wheel repair.
Tooth repair on a 30-hour time and strike
I would call this a passable tooth repair. It is functional but it could have been dressed properly and filed down to improve its appearance. I left it as-is.
Among American clocks, the name Elisha Manross does not immediately come to mind unlike well-known clockmakers such as Seth Thomas, New Haven or Waterbury. However, Elisha Manross (1792-1856) was an important pioneer of the Connecticut clock.
Brass mainsprings are very rare. It is possible for a clockmaker to go through their entire career without seeing brass mainsprings. Why? Because brass was used for a very short period as a mainspring in clocks. From 1836 to 1850 brass mainsprings were used because steel was considered very expensive. It was not until 1847 that the tempered steel mainspring developed for everyday clocks was introduced and with it, the brass mainspring faded into clock history.
Tempered brass mainspring, American Clock and Watch Museum, Bristol Connecticut, June 2019
Quite often 30-hour time and strike Gothic Steeple clocks such as this one by Elisha Manross (Ca. 1847) have steel mainsprings because the original brass mainsprings broke and were replaced. That the mainsprings in this clock are original and still in excellent condition tells me that this clock did not have a particularly hard life.
Elisha Manross 30 hour movement, as found
My plan is to preserve the brass mainsprings. Some might be tempted to replace them with steel ones. My interest is in preserving the brass mainsprings in this clock because they represents a very important part of the history of American clocks and should be back in the movement where they belong.
Back in December 2019, I wrote about the challenges of adjusting the strike side of this attractive parlour clock, a Waterbury York, circa 1900. Despite many attempts the strike side refused to work. Though I was close to a solution but I did not realize it at the time. I put it aside to think about it.
Attempt #2. Will I be successful? Read on.
A shot of the clock the day I brought it home.
The time side functioned perfectly but the strike side did not run at all when I first brought the clock home. Typically a good cleaning or a simple lever adjustment is all that is required though once I opened the movement up I saw it true colours. I detailed these surprises in my December post.
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Finish almost completely gone, right side
My daughter found this vintage Sessions electric table clock, a model 3W and gave it to me as a Christmas gift. It is made, by the Sessions Clock Co. Forestville, Connecticut in 1936 and sold in Canada (a Canadian Standards Approval sticker is on the back).
Left side
On the back, it states that it consumes 2.5 watts, I guess they couldn’t call it model 2.5! It was probably a very affordable clock in its day and available almost anywhere.
At 4 1/2 inches tall and 8 1/4 inches wide, it would fit on any countertop, bookcase etc. but it lacks an alarm it would not be a suitable bedside table clock. There is only one control in the rear, a push-and-twist-in knob that sets the time. Pretty simple!
Stripping the finish
Everything else, the face, hands, brass bezel were in great shape but the finish on the case had almost completely worn off. It is one block of wood and likely pine and likely tinted lacquer.
My daughter and I chose to work on the finish together. We stripped the case down completely and applied a light walnut stain. Several coats of shellac followed by sanding with 0000 steel wool between coats and finishing with paste wax completed the project.
New and improved 3W
The result is a richer, darker finish, more in keeping with the original. Given that it runs so well a refinish is a complement to a very simple but stylish desk clock.
Antique and Vintage Mechanical Clocks 
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